COMMISSION TO INQUIRE INTO CHILD ABUSE PUBLIC HEARING HELD AT HERBERT PARK HOTEL BALLSBRIDGE, DUBLIN 4 ON WEDNESDAY, 24TH MAY 2006 - DAY 221B EVIDENCE OF BR. SEAMUS NOLAN BEFORE: MR. JUSTICE SEÁN RYAN CHAIRPERSON OF THE INQUIRY and MS. MARIAN SHANLEY MR. FRED LOWE I hereby certify the Following to be a true and accurate transcript of my shorthand notes of the evidence in the above-named action. ______________________ MEMBERS OF THE COMMISSION PRESENT: REGISTRAR TO INVESTIGATION COMMITTEE: MR. B. REEDY COUNSEL FOR THE COMMISSION: MR. N. MacMAHON SC MS. L. RATTIGAN BL MR. P. WARD BL Instructed by: MS. E. McHUGH FOR THE CHRISTIAN BROTHERS: MR. P. HANRATTY SC MS. S. MOORHEAD BL Instructed by: MR. P. LANKFORD MAXWELL WELDON & DARLEY FOR THE DEPT. OF EDUCATION: MR. C. DIGNAM BL MR. M. CONNAUGHTON SC MR. M. DOWLING BL Instructed by: LAVELLE COLEMAN COPYRIGHT: Transcripts are the work of Gwen Malone Stenography Services and they must not be photocopied or reproduced in any manner or supplied or loaned by an appellant to a respondent or to by other party without written permission of Gwen Malone Stenography Services. INDEX WITNESS EXAMINATION QUESTION NO. BR. NOLAN QUESTION - THE COMMISSION 1 - 8 EXAMINED - MR. DOWLING 9 - 77 FURTHER QUESTIONED - THE COMMISSION 78 - 91 1 THE HEARING COMMENCED AS FOLLOWS ON WEDNESDAY, 24TH MAY 2 2006 3 4 BR. NOLAN WAS QUESTIONED, AS FOLLOWS, BY THE COMMISSION 5 12:32 6 MS. RATTIGAN: We are here at the moment 7 to hear evidence in respect 8 of Carriglea Park Industrial School. 9 THE CHAIRPERSON: And Br. Nolan is also 10 dealing with that? 11 MS. RATTIGAN: Br. Nolan is also dealing 12 with that. 13 THE CHAIRPERSON: Could I just ask something. 14 Mr. Ward, you spoke to the 15 people who had questions? 12:33 16 1 Q. MR. WARD: I have indeed, Chairman, 17 yes. There is one question 18 perhaps I might put to Br. Nolan at this stage, it is a 19 very simple question, Brother. Could you perhaps tell 20 us what documents or rules and regulations were put on 12:33 21 notice to the arriving students in the school, if at 22 all? 23 A. There were certainly no documents. It was an informal 24 induction. Somebody had to tell them and I think they 25 had to learn the rest then from the boys around them. 12:34 26 2 Q. MR. WARD: But there was no formal set 27 of rules on a wall or 28 anything like that? 29 A. No. Unfortunately, there were no sanctions. It wasn't 4 1 in the culture at the time. Now, I am not speak of 2 culture of Industrial Schools. I just mentioned during 3 the hearing there that the question of identifying 4 faults and pairing them with a punishment really only 5 occurred around 1989, when, first of all, a circular 12:34 6 following the abolition of corporal punishment in 1982, 7 there was a Committee sat for a number of years on 8 that. They issued, first of all, their report and then 9 a circular came. By then it was being done anyway. 10 But the idea was that a school would make the rules and 12:34 11 have the sanctions known. Now, in say the 1940's to 12 the 1970's that idea wasn't there. 13 MR. WARD: Okay thank you. Thank you 14 Chairman. 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: Very good. Sorry 12:35 16 Ms. Rattigan, you are about 17 to start on Carriglea. 18 3 Q. MS. RATTIGAN: That's correct, Chairman, 19 Br. Nolan, you are also 20 here as a member of the Provincial Leadership Team in 12:35 21 respect of St. Helen's? 22 A. Yes. 23 4 Q. And you are dealing with Carriglea Park Industrial 24 School in Dun Laoghaire. 25 A. Yes. 12:35 26 5 Q. I think it is also the case that you have no direct 27 personal involvement in respect of Carriglea? 28 A. Not as an industrial school. Later on, when it was 29 used as a house of formation, though I was never on the 5 1 staff there I was very familiar with the building, 2 modified as it was, of course, by then. 3 6 Q. I think you are referring to the fact that in 1956 4 Carriglea became a juniorate; is that correct? 5 A. That's right. 12:35 6 7 Q. After the Industrial School itself had closed in June 7 1954? 8 A. That's right. 9 8 Q. You have provided the Commission with a submission in 10 respect of the Industrial School, and in that you have 12:36 11 set out various sources of information. I think, also, 12 you have attended all the private hearings; is that 13 correct, Brother? 14 A. I did, yes. 15 MS. RATTIGAN: I will pass you over 12:36 16 now to Mr. Dowling, who may 17 have questions for you. 18 19 END OF QUESTIONING OF BR. NOLAN BY THE COMMISSION 20 12:36 21 BR. NOLAN WAS THEN EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY 22 MR. DOWLING: 23 24 9 Q. MR. DOWLING: Br. Nolan, I am just going 25 to ask you some questions 12:36 26 about Carriglea Park. I suppose the questions are 27 based mostly upon the documentation which has been 28 furnished. I think, as has already been explained, you 29 have no personal knowledge of the industrial school in 6 1 Carriglea Park? 2 A. No, I was never a staff member there. 3 10 Q. Could I just ask you, in terms of equipping yourself to 4 prepare this submission to the Committee, what steps 5 did you take, besides reviewing the documentation? Did 12:36 6 you speak to Brothers who worked there, or what steps 7 did you take? 8 A. Well it was difficult to find -- there was only one 9 that I could speak to. 10 11 Q. Right. So there was only one surviving Brother who had 12:36 11 actually been there? 12 A. Yes. But, nonetheless, some years earlier 13 questionnaires had been sent to people, I am speaking 14 about around the year 2000, and I may have picked up a 15 little more from that. But as regards to personal 12:37 16 contact there was only one available. 17 12 Q. In terms of those questionnaires -- sorry, maybe this 18 has been explained already -- what were those 19 questionnaires about? 20 A. Well, general life in the institution, their workload, 12:37 21 the timetable as they remembered it. All that kind of 22 information. 23 13 Q. Do you have copies of those questionnaires? 24 A. I don't have them here, no. 25 14 Q. Are they -- 12:37 26 A. I am sure they can be found, yes. They are not 27 specific to Carriglea Park alone. 28 15 Q. They were just generally sent out? 29 A. To people who were in industrial schools. 7 1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Would they be of relevance 2 to us? 3 A. I think we should send them on to you. 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. 5 MR. DOWLING: I wasn't aware that there 12:37 6 were such a thing. 7 THE CHAIRPERSON: Neither was I. 8 16 Q. MR. DOWLING: In relation to Carriglea 9 Park, I suppose we have 10 heard evidence in relation to Tralee, Letterfrack and 12:37 11 Artane and in general terms Carriglea seems to have 12 been fairly different from them, it is more of a 13 haphazard sort of a place. That is how it comes across 14 from the documentation. I don't know if you would 15 agree with that assessment. 12:38 16 A. There is no doubt in the early 1940's the staff there 17 was an ageing one, and it doesn't make good reading. 18 There was apparently very little done in the line of 19 games and occupations, recreational occupations. Those 20 complaints are there in the Visitation Reports. Quite 12:38 21 an amount of time is spent on explaining, trying to 22 explain the way the school responded to complaints by 23 the visitors. 24 17 Q. That's exactly what I wanted to touch upon. The 25 Visitation Reports, as you said, for the late 1930's, 12:38 26 early 1940's contain a substantial amount of criticism 27 of the school and there doesn't appear, perhaps, to 28 have been a fantastic response to the criticisms made 29 by the visitor. There isn't the same picture which you 8 1 might get in other institutions where there is a 2 criticism in a Visitation Report and then by the next 3 year it has been sorted out. The same problems appear 4 to persist in relation to hygiene, the general 5 conditions of the buildings -- I will ask you about 12:39 6 specifics in a second -- over a number of years. The 7 impression you get is that it was a kind of difficult 8 place to manage, essentially on behalf of the Christian 9 Brothers. There were a kind of law unto themselves in 10 some ways. I don't mean in a bad way, I just mean it 12:39 11 was haphazard if you like. 12 A. Haphazard insofar as they were struggling to work with 13 staff that was rather aged for that type of the work. 14 Another effort -- now this is not in anyway denigrating 15 the work of the lay teachers, because they did 12:39 16 remarkably well and I think it is well to pay attribute 17 to them. Nonetheless, the lay teachers were teachers 18 who taught from 9:00 to 3:00 and if they hadn't been 19 there probably the staff of Brothers would have been 20 slightly bigger and there would have been more 12:40 21 supervisory staff available. 22 18 Q. If I could just ask you then some of the specifics. 23 You have a small book of documents there, it is a 24 compendium of the discovery that we have received. 25 There are page numbers in the top right-hand corner of 12:40 26 each page and I am going to be asking you to refer to 27 those page numbers. In this case they are sequential 28 the whole way through the documents so you don't need 29 to worry about which tab the documents are in. If I 9 1 could just ask you to look, first of all -- and this is 2 about the Visitation Reports -- at the Visitation 3 Report from 1938, which you will find at page 59 of the 4 book? 5 A. Yes. 12:40 6 19 Q. I am just going to ask you to comment on a couple of 7 things on this Visitation Report and the following one. 8 If you look at page 60, and it is in about the 4th 9 paragraph. 10 12:40 "The classrooms are very suitable. 11 They are heated by ordinary open fires and as the rooms are small the heating 12 is adequate and the rooms comfortable. There is a total absence of the barrack 13 atmosphere from this institution, the only relic left is the bugle call, 14 which might also be discarded." 15 12:41 16 I was struck when I read that, that the visitor seems 17 to be making a virtue of the fact that this institution 18 isn't run along the militaristic lines that we have 19 heard described in respect of the other institutions. 20 A. That's correct, yes. 12:41 21 20 Q. I just wonder, from your perspective, because obviously 22 you have dealt with Tralee as well. 23 A. Yes. 24 21 Q. Why do you think it was that in the case of this 25 institution it was identified that it was good that 12:41 26 almost all of the barrack, bugle calls, marching were 27 gone and in respect of the other ones that was a key 28 focus of how they were managed? 29 A. It may be attributable to one person actually, who was 10 1 on the staff for a very long time, I think going back 2 to the 20's, was a Resident Manager in the mid 30's and 3 when his time was up, instead of being transferred he 4 remained on until the mid 40's. Now, he was a gentle 5 person himself, he gave all his time to work. He 12:42 6 overworked really. There is a book written by a past 7 student called "A stolen child", I think, and he speaks 8 very highly of him. It is also noted that later on, 9 when he left the establishment, visitors called to see 10 him, past students of Carriglea. So he was a man that 12:42 11 had a particular gift apparently. 12 22 Q. He seems to have been a bit of a character. 13 A. Yes. 14 23 Q. I am going to come to that now in a second, if you 15 like. If you look then at the next Visitation Report, 12:42 16 which starts at page 61, and this Visitation Report at 17 page 62 contains criticism of the institution and its 18 conditions. So, for example, it says: 19 "The boys make a better impression than 20 the institution." 12:42 21 22 And following that visitation a letter was written to 23 the Resident Manager criticising the condition of the 24 institution. That letter is at page 66. 25 A. Yes, I have that. 12:43 26 24 Q. You see it says that: 27 "The Brother's apartments and the 28 infirmary are said to be clean, other parts of the establishment are not so 29 well described. The refectory is being done up. The dormitories are fairly 11 1 clean. The classrooms and furniture therein are in a poor state of require 2 and ill furnished. The walls require cleaning down. Gymnasium is a lumber 3 room..." 4 5 And this comes up a number of times, they appear to be 12:43 6 storing timber for fires in the gymnasium, or something 7 like that. 8 "This is strange in an age that is 9 endevouring to improve the physique of the rising generation. You have two 10 Brothers who are said to have not much 12:43 to do, Brothers (blank) and (blank). 11 Get either or both of them to do the work of cleaning up the parts of the 12 house which have come in for criticism. The work will do them good as well as 13 the apartments cleaned by their exertions." 14 15 Now, that seems to suggest that the fault mightn't 12:43 16 necessarily be that the staff was overworked, it seems 17 to suggest that some of the staff were idle or lazy. 18 Would that be fair to say? 19 A. It would. I don't know who the Brothers were. It is 20 possible they were people beyond their teaching age, in 12:44 21 that they would have been teachers beforehand. I am 22 amazed actually that coming from headquarters that 23 there is reference to a kind of "do-it-yourself" job 24 given. But there is no doubt about it that the 25 building was beginning to run down. It was a 12:44 26 comparatively new building at the time, having been 27 opened in the 1890's. Later on I made a point as 28 regards finances and so on, because they found 29 themselves fairly well off at the end. There was 12 1 another reason for that. But one of the reasons was 2 that the large scale work on the fabric of the building 3 wasn't really required. But certainly minor works were 4 apparently put on the long finger. 5 25 Q. That's what I wanted to ask you about. Because, as I 12:44 6 said, in other institutions you have a pattern where if 7 the fairly strict letter comes from the visitor it 8 appears to have been acted upon. That letter was 9 written in April 1938? 10 A. Yes. 12:45 11 26 Q. We know then from an inspection by Dr. McCabe in April 12 1939 that, in fact, it doesn't appear to have been 13 sorted out because if you look at page 8 of the book? 14 A. Yes, I am familiar with the letter all right. 15 27 Q. Dr. McCabe writes to say that she visited Carriglea 12:45 16 Industrial School and she states that: 17 "The general condition of the school 18 was not too satisfactory. The passages, dormitory and refectory were 19 none too clean." 20 She talks about the ventilation of the classrooms. 12:45 21 She says that the food is rather below standard but 22 does say that the infirmary is good and that the boys 23 in it looked happy. So, I suppose, she comes along, 24 the letter doesn't appear to have been actioned by the 25 visitor and this letter, I think, elicits -- well, her 12:46 26 letter is sent then by the Department to the Resident 27 Manager and the Resident Manager goes ballistic, I 28 think, when he gets the letter and pens a very upset 29 response to it. I think that's correct. That's at 13 1 page 10 of the book. 2 A. Yes, it is the man we are speaking about, that I have 3 been speaking about earlier, who enumerates all the 4 things he does and feels very let down by the type of 5 report. 12:46 6 28 Q. There is just one part of it I wanted to ask you about 7 in particular, which is the start of it. I can't read 8 all of his handwriting but he says -- well, first of 9 all, he writes it as soon as he gets the one from the 10 Department, he doesn't seem to sit on it for too long. 12:46 11 He writes and says: 12 "It is 9:40 p.m. old time, that which 13 we work on here. It is 10:40 p.m. summer time, that which you and the 14 rest of the world reckon your day by, and at this hour all sensible people, 15 including our fair medical 12:46 inspector..." 16 17 I think that's what he seems to be saying. 18 A. Yes. 19 29 Q. 20 "...have had several hours..." 12:47 21 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: 23 "...put several hours restful leisure 24 over them." 25 12:47 26 30 Q. MR. DOWLING: 27 "Not so this unfortunate, however, for 28 it is only now that I have time to sit down to write my observations on the 29 letter from the doctor." 14 1 He goes crazy. There is a lot more of the same in the 2 letter, saying about the work that he does, he calls 3 it: 4 "...wearying, slavish work..." 5 12:47 6 and he makes a number of complaints about the type of 7 work that he has to do. Brother, the first thing I 8 just wanted to ask you about, and maybe this has come 9 up before, the schools never changed their clocks in 10 summertime; is that correct? 12:47 11 A. It was a local idea and I am a little bit confused 12 about the whole thing. Because I do remember myself, 13 as a youngster, during wartime I think it was imposed 14 all round and at one stage there was double summertime. 15 The whole idea was daylight saving anyway. 12:47 16 THE CHAIRPERSON: But I find letters, 17 Brothers, in Letterfrack 18 that acknowledge the fact that summertime goes on 19 elsewhere but not here. 20 A. That's correct, they must have had their own reasons. 12:48 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: For some reason there was 22 some policy. 23 MR. DOWLING: That's mentioned in one of 24 the Visitation Reports, 25 that it is always run on old time, all year around, and 12:48 26 it doesn't run in summertime. I suppose that was just 27 to stop confusion in terms of the highly regimented 28 day. That seems to have been the reason for it, that 29 it made it very simple to follow the same routine every 15 1 day if the clocks never changed. 2 A. It is possible. But, you know, just immediately after 3 the change of clock all days are the same again. So I 4 really don't understand the reason for that. 5 31 Q. Well, obviously, it seems to have posed a difficulty in 12:48 6 the minds of your predecessors in the Christian 7 Brothers that they had to re-order everything? 8 A. Oh everywhere. There are some convents until the 9 1960's, you knew well from the ringing of their bells, 10 around Dublin even, that they were following a 12:49 11 different clock time. 12 32 Q. The thing that seems, I suppose, and I wanted to ask 13 you to comment on it, is that whereas the Visitation 14 Report didn't have any effect upon the conditions of 15 the building, and whereas the Resident Manager was 12:49 16 incensed by what Dr. McCabe said it is clear from the 17 following Visitation Report that in fact he then took 18 steps to clean the place and boys were allocated to 19 clean it. 20 A. Yes. 12:49 21 33 Q. If you look at page 68 of the book, he doesn't appear 22 to have taken the example of the Resident Manager, of 23 the visitor, and asked Brothers to do it. It 24 says that: 25 12:49 "a few selected boys were assigned to 26 see to its cleanliness". 27 That's at the bottom of the page there. 28 A. Yes, I have that. 29 34 Q. If you just look over to the next page, I wanted to ask 16 1 you about this, it is in relation to the education of 2 the boys, and this is mentioned in your submission. 3 "It is recorded here that the practice 4 of sending a few of the more talented boys to the secondary school in Dun 5 Laoghaire has been discontinued. Then 12:50 it states that instead boys are 6 prepared for elementary examines, such as that of boy messengers in the post 7 office." 8 9 There is a number of other criticisms, I think, in the 10 Visitation Reports of the education standard of the 12:50 11 boys, that there is no music for them, the library is 12 badly stocked, and so on. Do you have any comment, or 13 were you able to find anything about why that happened 14 in this institution? 15 A. First of all, the comments on the library were as 12:50 16 regards the house library rather than the school one, 17 to my knowledge. An effort was made in the 30's, again 18 now during the time of office of the man we mentioned, 19 of getting people into a school in Dun Laoghaire, 20 Christian Brothers secondary school in Dun Laoghaire. 12:50 21 It lasted for a few years, was apparently successful 22 but the official term was unsuccessful. We have not 23 got any reason for it. There are suggestions that the 24 social gap was a bit much for the school to take, 25 because they withdrew. I think it was at that time 12:51 26 that an alternative method of doing something for them 27 after primary school, in a school sense, opened up the 28 possibility of the post office examines. That's the 29 boy messengers, that in the long term could lead to 17 1 permanent, pensionable employment. They followed on 2 that until the early 1950's, just before they closed. 3 35 Q. But you are aware that -- I know there is a limited 4 number of complaints that have been made in respect of 5 this institution, but that some of the complaints made 12:51 6 relate to the lack of opportunity and the lack of 7 education, and that that would seem to point to some 8 veracity of that, that whereas there was a practice of 9 boys being sent to secondary schools that was 10 discontinued? 12:52 11 A. That was. That's one of them. But, again, there was 12 the substitute that some availed of, and some did quite 13 well out of it apparently. Now, there were various 14 efforts, as in the other schools, of getting some form 15 of recognition for vocational training, either in the 12:52 16 primary school or in conjunction with the local 17 vocational school. None of these were really well 18 fastened down but there were efforts being made all 19 along. 20 36 Q. Okay. If I could ask you then just in relation to, I 12:52 21 think as you have described, the Resident Manager, who 22 was there for a long time, he became sick, I think he 23 had cancer. 24 A. That was a another person. 25 37 Q. That was a different person, was it? 12:52 26 A. Yes, another person. 27 38 Q. If you look at page 78. I think it is being suggested 28 by yourself and by the other witnesses that it was very 29 easy to make complaints to the visitor, and it was an 18 1 opportunity really to criticise management in the 2 institution. But there is an example on page 78, which 3 is a Visitation Report from the early 1940's, 1943, of 4 somebody only being able to make complaints about the 5 management of the institution after the Superior had 12:53 6 died. If you look at the bottom of the page there, or 7 that's what it seems to suggest. I am just wondering 8 if you clarify that? It says: 9 "Br. (Blank) made the following 10 complaints, all of which were directed 12:53 against the late superior. He 11 complains that boys were taken out of school to work in garden, which 12 interfered with their chances of getting a proper education." 13 14 A. Yes, I think it is not actually the Superior who had 15 died, it was a person who had been Superior. There is 12:53 16 a complaint there for taking boys out of school. It 17 would be talking about the person we praised so much in 18 the beginning and it doesn't seem to suit that he would 19 be taking boys out of school to work in the garden. I 20 am a bit (inaudible) by that really. Occasionally this 12:53 21 type of thing did happen, to take someone out to do a 22 special job. But to have it on a permanent basis just 23 wouldn't be acceptable. 24 39 Q. That's what I wanted to suggest to you. Taken together 25 with the previous comment that we have seen, that 12:54 26 whatever about the merits of this person as a man it 27 appears that he may have been insufficiently focussed 28 on the education of the boys, to the extent that a 29 Brother made a specific complaint about him in relation 19 1 to that? 2 A. Speaking of the person in question, he was actually 3 responsible for any advancement that had been made. So 4 maybe we are returning to something like the Tralee 5 situation, where there was a little bit of bickering 12:54 6 going on. I could see at this time that the man in 7 question was losing some of his power, it was obvious 8 in this, recreation facilities and so on, and some 9 other members in the community were beginning to talk. 10 That's what I can see from the documentation. 12:54 11 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Before I go could I just 12 say a word please? My 13 brother was in Artane school, Michael 14 Flanagan...(INTERJECTION) 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, we are in the 12:55 16 middle...(INTERJECTION.) 17 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: And I just can't sit here 18 and listen to this anymore. 19 He was very badly beaten, punished, abused. 20 THE CHAIRPERSON: We'll just carry on. 12:55 21 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: And died eight years. I 22 had the pleasure of burying 23 him myself. Thank you. Michael Flanagan was his name. 24 40 Q. MR. DOWLING: Brother, what I wanted to 25 ask you about now is, 12:55 26 again, even though there had been a criticism by the 27 visitor of the condition of the building and then a 28 criticism from Dr. McCabe, things appeared to have 29 continued to deteriorate and over the next three or 20 1 four years there is a picture of what sound like quite 2 disgusting conditions in the institution. Would you 3 accept that? 4 A. Yes, it just can't be denied. The conditions would be 5 with regard to occupations, recreation occupations 12:55 6 essentially. In the meantime, for some particular 7 reason the band had been discontinued. So there was 8 calls for re-establishing the band. 9 10 Now, every time a complaint was made an effort was made 12:56 11 to solve but the use of monitors was chosen. This 12 brings us back again to the Brother we were speaking 13 of. He could manage these very well and at some time, 14 apparently, had met with success. But at this time 15 now, ten years later than when he was at his best, I'm 12:56 16 afraid it just didn't work. So eventually, I think 17 1945, he was replaced and went on to be very successful 18 elsewhere. The initial change wasn't actually enough 19 so another year, it was 1946, before there was a 20 completely new approach, with new staff, quite an 12:56 21 experienced one. As well as that things that had 22 fallen into disuse were reconstituted, especially the 23 band. 24 41 Q. I am not, obviously, accepting, that's a different -- I 25 am talking about the physical conditions and the 12:57 26 conditions in relation to the clothing and the hygiene 27 of the boys, that over a substantial number of years, 28 maybe four or five years, between the inspections from 29 Dr. McCabe and the visitors there is a picture painted 21 1 of an institution that is really run down, in terms of 2 the physical condition. So, for example, in 1943 the 3 visitor records that: 4 "Six or seven of boys' toilets had been 5 used, were out of order and could not 12:57 be flushed except by bringing water in 6 buckets." 7 So there are problems with sanitation. He says: 8 "Large patches of paint are peeling off 9 the walls. There is an unfinished piggery, which ought to be removed or 10 completed." 12:57 11 12 This picture continues in terms of very bad physical 13 conditions. Also, I think quite poor hygiene amongst 14 the boys, so that there are two letters written 15 complaining about that by Dr. McCabe. If I could just 12:58 16 ask you to look at the first of those, which is page 24 17 of the book. 18 A. Could I just mention in passing that they had a 19 difficulty with water pressure there. It was on a 20 rather high part of the land around Dun Laoghaire. Not 12:58 21 quite into the mountains by any means. But that is 22 mentioned in one of those reports as well. The water 23 pressure did cause a problem. 24 42 Q. That might explain one part of it. I just would ask 25 you to look at these two documents and the Visitation 12:58 26 Reports. If you look at the first one, page 24 of the 27 book, while Dr. McCabe says that on the whole the 28 school is run in a satisfactory manner she makes a 29 number of complaints about: 22 1 "...the boys not getting enough milk, they should be given porridge for 2 breakfast or supper during the winter. They should have a bath at least once a 3 week. Their bed linen should be changed more frequently. They should be given 4 a toothbrush and steps should be taken to ensure that the boys clean their 5 teeth regularly...a dentist should 12:59 visit the school every three months." 6 7 Then there is a suggestion about medical charts. 8 Notwithstanding that a letter is sent by the school 9 saying: 10 12:59 "We will deal with these issues." 11 12 If you look at page 29. This is two years later, there 13 is a letter making a number of criticisms of the 14 hygiene of the boys and the general conditions, but two 15 years later the medical inspector makes a number of 12:59 16 similar complaints. For example, she says that: 17 "The boys clothing is very patched and 18 it should be improved. Nightshirts should be provided. Their underpants 19 should be changed weekly. At present this is done only ever four to six 20 weeks." 12:59 21 22 That just seems extraordinary, that it would be done as 23 infrequently as that. 24 A. But, again, they were very, very slow on catching up. 25 As regards shirts, that arose at the Manager's meeting 13:00 26 as ability to get them. Now, that was during the war. 27 But apparently there was a shortage into much later 28 than that. 29 43 Q. For example, it says here: 23 1 "The boys should be made to use their toothbrushes at night. The shower bath 2 should be put in order for use as soon as possible." 3 4 Again, she is saying a boy should get a pint of milk 5 each day and then the dentist is again requested. 13:00 6 While you may have an excuse in relation to the 7 individual items, the picture painted is of one where 8 the boys are of poor hygiene, run down and nothing is 9 being done about it, even though the medical inspector 10 is writing about it over a two year period. Would you 13:00 11 accept that? 12 A. I'd have to. Incidentally, there is something I think 13 I should mention about these reports, about how 14 forthright and also how particular they are. Because, 15 first of all, there is a report from the medical 13:01 16 inspector, that's the handwritten one, that always is 17 followed -- that was given apparently to the Department 18 of Education, then the Department of Education, very 19 like the visitation, sends on the recommendations and 20 then that has to be replied to. That is the sequence. 13:01 21 Well, apparently, in spite of all of that they didn't 22 get there right up to practically the end. 23 44 Q. Nothing was done about these complaints. They are not 24 complaints that are reflected in the other 25 institutions, it seems that for whatever reason the 13:01 26 general conditions of hygiene and so on with boys in 27 this institution were exceptionally bad. You accept 28 that I think? 29 A. They were bad during that period. I think we should 24 1 look as well at some of the Visitation Reports that 2 mention around the farm. This would result from having 3 an incompetent farm Brother. Towards the end that 4 improved. I don't think they ever overcame the 5 question of water pressure. 13:02 6 45 Q. Just over the same period, and I think you may have 7 flagged this already, there are, again over a number of 8 years, the visitor in the Visitation Report flags the 9 fact that there is a problem with the boys of peer 10 abuse; isn't that correct? 13:02 11 A. That's correct. 12 46 Q. Again, for reasons which you may have adverted to, that 13 just doesn't appear to have been addressed. So if you 14 look at page 84 of the book, for example. Just towards 15 the bottom of the page it states: 13:02 16 "Several Brothers stated that 17 supervision outside needed tightening up because boys could slip away rather 18 easily. A few were caught acting immorally some time back, in the 19 garden." 20 13:03 21 Then he suggests that a monitor should be located to 22 supervise the toilet area. Then the visitor goes on to 23 criticise the fact that there are not games for the 24 boys. 25 13:03 "The Sub-Superior and others are 26 anxious to have more attention given to organised games so as to keep the boys 27 actively employed. I saw them sitting or lying on the concrete yard for long 28 periods when they could be playing the field if games were organised for 29 them." 25 1 Then it says there are no swings and it just makes 2 other criticisms. Then if you turn on to page 92, 3 which is two years later I think, it says that, in 4 relation to the boys: 5 13:03 "Immoral practices are rife among them, 6 so much that even the younger boys are contaminated. Boys of 11 years of age 7 have been discovered practicing immorality with one another. The 8 chaplain has little influence with the boys and the Brothers say that many of 9 them refuse to go to confession to him. A number of them have been months 10 without approaching the sacraments, 13:04 although we have two extraordinary 11 confessors once a month." 12 13 Then the reasons for this are given. 14 "This unfortunate state of affairs has 15 been brought about by weak discipline, 13:04 lack of suitable occupation and an 16 insufficiency of games and other amusements." 17 18 I think you will see, Brother, that it is virtually the 19 same criticisms that were made two years beforehand are 20 identified as the cause for this; is that correct?? 13:04 21 A. There is no doubt about it, and it is particularly 22 strong because they are actually harping because they 23 have made these recommendations before. Now, in the 24 submission there is reference to efforts to try and 25 counter that. It is mainly the use of monitors. But 13:04 26 that last page we mentioned, that was the end of it 27 really. The first effort on really solving it by 28 changing personnel took place in 1945, not a hundred 29 percent successful but in 1946 things began to come 26 1 back into place, as regards discipline, recreation, 2 activities for the boys, keeping with the building at a 3 much lower rate we'll say. 4 47 Q. What I wanted to ask you about, Brother, and I suppose 5 just to comment on this because you have already given 13:05 6 evidence in relation to Tralee and the Visitation 7 Reports, it does point to something of a failure in the 8 whole system of central management that the visitor 9 goes out once a year, he is there for three days and it 10 appears to be left entirely in the hands of the local 13:05 11 management then to make sure that something is done. 12 Isn't that correct? 13 A. That's correct. Well, in some places it depended of 14 course on the local management, it is possible to have 15 recourse to the headquarter's people at any time if 13:05 16 they are at home. Because at that time visitation 17 meant being away from home for fairly lengthy periods. 18 But in extreme cases, yes, they would visit again. And 19 there was such a thing as a special visitation, which 20 was one out of the normal context, the annual 13:06 21 visitation. However, it wasn't done in Carriglea. 22 48 Q. It wasn't done there. For whatever reason there 23 appears to have been a situation allowed to arise where 24 the same identical problems persisted over a number of 25 years, giving rise to the difficulties of peer abuse 13:06 26 that have been identified in reports; is that correct? 27 A. That's correct. 28 49 Q. In fact -- on page 92 -- the problem, I suppose, also 29 seems to have extended to discipline, because the boys, 27 1 unlike I suppose the other institutions, appear to have 2 taken matters into their own hands in Carriglea? 3 A. Yes. 4 50 Q. And it is recorded. 5 A. It is recorded there. 13:06 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: What page? 7 MR. DOWLING: It is page 92. It 8 says that: 9 "The boys were very much out of hand 10 during the past year and showed a very 13:06 rebellious spirit. Booing the Brothers 11 was not uncommon and they refused more than once to submit to control. They 12 made a determined attempt on one occasion to burn down the place and 13 actually got a fire going in one of the dormitories before they were 14 discovered." 15 13:07 16 I am sorry, it is difficult not to laud their spirit in 17 some ways because this didn't happen anywhere else. 18 "This insubordination reached its 19 climax during the month of June, when Br. (Blank) was absent and they were 20 under the control of the Superior and 13:07 Br. X. Things have improved 21 considerably since he took charge in August and they are now more 22 disciplined." 23 24 So in Carriglea I suppose, unlike other institutions, 25 the boys actually appear to have been able to assert 13:07 26 their collective will against the Brothers, as opposed 27 to the other way around. Why do you think that what 28 happened here and didn't happen elsewhere? 29 A. Well this particular incident, as you will see, so and 28 1 so took charge in August, it was during July, the 2 regular staff was away. On a particular evening, the 3 one in which this booing took place and the fire 4 attempt, the Superior was there and the second 5 Br. (Blank) was quite an old person. It appeared that 13:08 6 the person who turned up set things right. He was 7 apparently in town for the evening, or something. He 8 should have been at home, I would say. And as soon as 9 he returned things came back into shape. But they were 10 actually understaffed at that particular moment. 13:08 11 51 Q. But isn't there another way of looking at it? Doesn't 12 it suggest, because you have heard the evidence from 13 your colleagues in relation to the happy families in 14 Artane and the general contented atmosphere of the 15 boys, that in this institution, where the boys weren't 13:08 16 under the same rigid discipline as in Artane and Tralee 17 and Letterfrack, that they didn't seem too happy with 18 the conditions generally and that they were able to 19 stand up to the Brothers and express their 20 dissatisfaction to the Brothers in a vocal way? Does 13:08 21 that not make you wonder was the happy families in the 22 other institutions not solely as a result of the rigid 23 discipline that was applied? 24 A. It could well have been. The discipline, not 25 particularly in that year but in some years beforehand, 13:09 26 was a rather relax one by comparison with the others. 27 Why it happened to come to a head at this particular 28 time I don't know. But what it did is it highlighted 29 the fact that it wasn't working, what they were doing 29 1 wasn't working and that stronger measures would have to 2 be taken. The regime that followed was very like 3 Artane, it was quite regimented and staff taking 4 responsibility rather than monitors. 5 52 Q. I think, and obviously because there was a smaller 13:09 6 number of complaints in relation to this institution it 7 is more difficult to ask you general questions about 8 them. But you were present during all of the evidence 9 given by the complainants? 10 A. I was. 13:09 11 53 Q. Isn't it correct that evidence was given of severe 12 physical abuse, some of it in the late 40's and early 13 1950's? Isn't that correct? 14 A. Especially in the early 1940's, there was a person 15 mentioned, yes. 13:10 16 54 Q. But there was also evidence given in relation to severe 17 beatings at a later stage as well; isn't that correct? 18 A. That is correct, yes. Probably part of the stronger 19 regime. Though the person against whom those 20 allegations would have been made has been praised as 13:10 21 being a fair person. So it is difficult really to come 22 down to the nitty-gritty. But, certainly, strong 23 measures were to be taken after 1946. There is some 24 evidence that that did happen. 25 55 Q. That just comes back to the general question I asked 13:10 26 you earlier, which is that there seems to be a cause 27 and affect relationship there, that the only way, 28 equipped as they were, the Christian Brothers were able 29 to manage these type of boys was through severe 30 1 discipline. That the school was chaotic when it was 2 being run without the iron fist and then order was only 3 restored when the iron fist was introduced. Isn't that 4 one reading of what happened? 5 A. It is a reading that can be taken from it. But I think 13:11 6 there is also a question of aging. That we are really 7 down to practically one person who had a means of doing 8 it and for whom it worked well, and towards the end of 9 his time it didn't work anymore. It is also the case 10 too, of course, that during the wartime numbers went up 13:11 11 a little bit and the type of person being committed 12 were more and more people who came from difficult 13 families and possibly a certain amount of those who 14 were being put in for petty crime, and so on. So the 15 actual cohort there in 1943/44 could have been quite 13:11 16 different from those who were there earlier. 17 56 Q. Could I just ask you one question, and maybe I missed 18 this elsewhere. There is mention in the Visitation 19 Reports of a visitation fee, what exactly was that, do 20 you know, or have you investigated that? 13:12 21 A. You see, all of these groups had to live. The Brothers 22 in the community maintained their house through taking 23 a stipend and taking a salary from the money available. 24 So also would the Provincial Council, they had no means 25 of support other than putting a stipend on each house. 13:12 26 It is a few hundred pounds. It changed with time of 27 course. It was a levy on each Brother to contribute to 28 the Provincial Council. It was collected usually when 29 it was available. It wasn't always available. It was 31 1 collected during visitation, or at least the bill was 2 given at that time. 3 57 Q. That's right. If you could look at page 73. 4 A. Now and again it turns up in the finances heading. 5 58 Q. It says: 13:12 6 "visitation dues, £320 herewith." 7 8 So the bill appears to be presented with the report. 9 What strikes me is that relative to the amount of money 10 that was going through Carriglea it was a substantial 13:13 11 amount of money, £320, in the context of the finances. 12 So, for example, it was...(INTERJECTION) 13 A. It wasn't coming out of the college, or the school 14 account. It was coming out of the house account. 15 Admittedly, it would have come -- the house account 13:13 16 drew on the school account. 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: So in a round about way it 18 could be traced back -- 19 A. It could be traced back. 20 THE CHAIRPERSON: -- to the capitation. 13:13 21 A. Through the earnings of the community out of the 22 capitation. 23 59 Q. MR. DOWLING: That's just the point I 24 wanted to make. The 25 finances do appear to have been treated all as one and, 13:13 26 in fact, there appear to have been, while I suppose 27 nothing arises there is some confusion over the 28 finances. 29 A. As a matter of fact the Visitation Reports are not 32 1 really reliable on finances. First of all, they are 2 not at the same time every year. But in the submission 3 the chapter on finances is based on annual reports that 4 houses and schools submitted at the given time every 5 year, the end of the year. 13:14 6 60 Q. If I could just ask you in relation to the question of 7 sex abuse, because that, again, appears to have been a 8 difficulty in Carriglea, as it was in the other 9 institutions run by the Christian Brothers. Isn't that 10 correct? 13:14 11 A. Well, there are only one or two occasions. Of course 12 any one is far too many. But actually you have give us 13 some of the documentation here. We dealt with them 14 yesterday actually, they were the same too people that 15 were mentioned yesterday in relation to Artane. 13:14 16 61 Q. That's right, they are some of the same people. So, 17 for example, on page 51 you have an example of one 18 Brother. 19 "He was accused by the boys in 20 Carriglea of immodest conduct towards 13:15 themselves. He admitted the truth of 21 the accusations when called before the General Council for trial. One offence 22 occurred on Christmas day 1944, though he made vows on Christmas morning. He 23 was unanimously dismissed." 24 25 Then it says, which I think was covered yesterday: 13:15 26 "Suspicion had been aroused by a 27 tendency to a particular friendship with a boy in Artane." 28 29 The second one, which is the one I just wanted to ask 33 1 you about because you made a comment about it in your 2 submission. Just bear with me one second. That's 3 dealt with at page 54 onwards. It says: 4 "Clear evidence came to light from boys 5 at Artane re serious misconduct of 13:15 indecent character. He was tried by 6 General Council and unanimously judged guilty. Then he appealed and was 7 advised to seek a dispensation. He appealed to the apostolic visitor." 8 9 Whom we heard mentioned yesterday. 10 A. Yes. 13:16 11 62 Q. Just go over the page to page 55. It just says, about 12 half way down the page: 13 "The charges against him were of a 14 serious of accusations by boys of the school indicating criminal or indecent 15 assault." 13:16 16 17 I am not sure if that has been dealt with before, but 18 it seems to very specifically identify these as 19 criminal offences as opposed to moral failure? 20 A. It does, yes. 13:16 21 63 Q. And again this wasn't, of course, reported to the 22 guards, that has been established well at this stage. 23 "His position was fully explained to him. He was also reminded of the 24 causes of his removal from Marino and Carriglea, a canonical warning had been 25 given to him re the Carriglea 13:16 incident." 26 27 He goes on about the charges. So obviously this is a 28 case where somebody had two previous incidences of 29 having abused boys, he was given a warning in relation 34 1 to one of them and he again committed the offence again 2 in Carriglea. What I couldn't understand is -- if you 3 look at page 64 of your submission. 4 A. I have it here now. 5 64 Q. You describe the incident and you say that he talked 13:17 6 about what happened, you then say: 7 "He left the Congregation in October 1944. It transpired later, in the", I 8 think that's just a typo, "that he also offended while in Carriglea Park. 9 10 A. That would be the investigation that was mentioned 13:18 11 there on page 56 here. 12 65 Q. It is a mistake to say that it transpired later? 13 A. Well, it transpired to me. That's the inference there. 14 The General Council people knew all about it at the 15 time. 13:18 16 66 Q. Exactly. So it is misleading to say it transpired 17 later. In fact, the situation is that they knew full 18 well when he had been sent to Carriglea that he had 19 been guilty of this in the past. So for whatever 20 reason the statement "it transpired later" is simply 13:18 21 incorrect; is that correct? 22 A. It is incorrect. 23 67 Q. There is just one last thing I want to ask you about, 24 it also relates to abuse. If you look to page 45 of 25 the documents, this is a minute of a meeting between 13:18 26 District Justice McCarthy and the Reverend 27 Br. O'Hanlon. Can I ask you, was he one of the people 28 who, for example, sat on that Provincial Council, if 29 you go back to page 56, or that General Council? 35 1 A. No, there is a similar name, but the Irish for that is 2 not O'Hanlon. 3 68 Q. It is somebody different? 4 A. A completely different person. The person you have 5 just mentioned, he was the manager, as Provincial he 13:19 6 was manager. He was the person who instigated, or set 7 in motion anyway, the closing of Carriglea and then in 8 the discussions that followed the move to move 9 offenders to Letterfrack. It is in connection with 10 that that this meeting took place. 13:19 11 69 Q. There is just one thing I want to ask you about in 12 respect of this and I am not sure if any of your 13 colleagues have been asked about this in the context of 14 the other schools. This is a meeting between District 15 Judge McCarthy, Reverend O'Hanlon, who is the 13:19 16 Provincial, and then also some very senior civil 17 servants, a secretary and the assistant secretary of 18 the Department were present at the meeting. In the 19 last paragraph it states: 20 "Before the arrival of District Justice 13:19 McCarthy and after his departure the 21 recent incident in the Artane school in which boy sustained a fracture of an 22 arm was discussed." 23 24 So the officials raised this issue with the Provincial? 25 A. It was in 1964, it was current news at the time. 13:20 26 70 Q. 27 "The secretary pointed out the importance," this is the secretary of 28 the Department, "of having only the most suitable persons placed on the 29 staff of these schools." 36 1 2 3 Then Br. O'Hanlon stated that: 4 "No Brother with a black mark against him is put on the staff of those 5 schools". 13:20 6 Now, just looking back, that's obviously a 7 representation made by Br. O'Hanlon to senior civil 8 servants in the Department; isn't that correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 71 Q. Would you accept that that was simply incorrect? 13:20 11 A. No, because we are talking about 1954 and the incidents 12 we had just discussed go back to the early 1940's. 13 O'Hanlon would have -- in 1954, he would have a 14 different approach. Except there is one thing, that 15 transfers with regard to domestic people were limited 13:21 16 because they could only be in either a Christian 17 Brother's house of formation, or Industrial Schools, 18 and these were the only resident ones. But an effort 19 was made, I think, and certainly by Br. O'Hanlon's 20 time, that people in Industrial Schools, in all 13:21 21 schools, would have 100% clear record. 22 72 Q. Maybe I am a bit confused, but did you hear the 23 evidence given by your colleague Br. Reynolds 24 yesterday, that in fact people were moved from school 25 to school who had allegations against them and people 13:21 26 ended up in Industrial Schools who had previously been 27 accused of sexual misconduct elsewhere; isn't that 28 correct? 29 A. That's correct, yes. 37 1 73 Q. And that happened throughout the entire period which 2 this Committee is enquiring into; isn't that correct? 3 A. Yes, that's correct. But on account of changes of 4 administration, even though there was some carry over, 5 I'm afraid the system was open to errors. I would hope 13:22 6 that they were all errors that were made through lack 7 of knowledge rather than done deliberately. 8 74 Q. Well, if, for example, the Committee were to establish 9 that, in fact, while under Br. O'Hanlon's management 10 people were sent into Industrial Schools who had 13:22 11 previous allegations of sexual misconduct against them, 12 what would you say without that, about Br. O'Hanlon 13 telling senior civil servants? 14 A. I would say if it did happen in his time it would be 15 without his knowledge, I would say. He was a very 13:22 16 forthright person. 17 75 Q. So you are unable to accept, for example, that it is 18 possible that Br. O'Hanlon was actually misleading the 19 civil servants? 20 A. Certain not misleading them, that he could be in error 13:22 21 certainly. But not a deliberate effort of misleading. 22 76 Q. Maybe that's obviously, but you weren't there. Are you 23 seriously trying to suggest that you can't accept, even 24 at this remove, having heard the evidence of the 25 Christian Brothers allowing child abusers move 13:23 26 institution to institution, that this could actually be 27 a lie and a cover up, you just can't accept that's 28 right? 29 A. I can't, having -- I didn't know man that well 38 1 personally, but his standing in the Congregation, his 2 standing on various things, that I just couldn't accept 3 him making that remark as a lie. 4 77 Q. It must be a mistake, as far as you are concerned? 5 A. It -- well, I just wonder what the actual words were as 13:23 6 well, but if he made that mistake he made it to the 7 best of his knowledge. 8 MR. DOWLING: I have no further 9 questions. Thank you. 10 END OF EXAMINATION OF BR. NOLAN BY MR. DOWLING. 13:23 11 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Now, 13 Ms. Rattigan, have you any 14 questions? 15 13:23 16 BR. SEAMUS NOLAN WAS FURTHER QUESTIONED, AS FOLLOWS, BY 17 THE COMMISSION: 18 19 78 Q. MS. RATTIGAN: Chairman, I have just one 20 question arising in respect 13:23 21 of the Visitation Reports and the outcome of those 22 Visitation Reports. 23 24 (To the witness) Brother, if I could just bring you to 25 page 57 of your submission. 13:24 26 THE CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just before you do 27 that. Mr. Dowling, may I 28 say that you and your solicitors deserve compliments on 29 the way these documents were prepared. They are 39 1 extremely well done and it is very easy for us to use 2 them. 3 MR. DOWLING: Well Ms. Downey will be 4 delighted. 5 THE CHAIRPERSON: It is only fair to 13:24 6 acknowledge that they are 7 very well prepared AND very neatly done and it makes 8 life easy for us in following your examination. Thank 9 you very much indeed. Sorry, Ms. Rattigan. 10 79 Q. MS. RATTIGAN: Can I just refer you to 13:24 11 page 57 of your submission, 12 Brother, under the heading "Outcome of the Visitation." 13 You say...(INTERJECTION)? 14 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Rattigan, could you 15 pull your microphone a tiny 13:24 16 bit towards you and I'm finding it difficult and I can 17 see people in the room are having difficulty hearing 18 you. 19 80 Q. MS. RATTIGAN: Sorry about that. You say 20 at page 57: 13:24 21 "On the conclusion of the visitation the visitor usually discussed his 22 impressions of the running of establishment with the Superior 23 Resident Manager. He then wrote a report which was discussed by the 24 Provincial Council that any strictures or recommendations arising from this 25 report were formally communicated by 13:25 the relevant higher Superior to the 26 local Superior of the house concerned by means of a visitation letter". 27 28 Were there any enforcement procedures available to the 29 Provincial Council to enforce the recommendations that 40 1 were set out in their letters? 2 A. Not really, except by following up the file the next 3 year, to ask the same questions again. If things 4 really got out of hand, of course, they could move on 5 the question of replacing somebody, something like 13:25 6 that. But it wasn't built into the system. It wasn't 7 expected that there would be failure. So when it did 8 happen the only thing left was to do it again, 9 apparently. Incidentally, while we are on that, the 10 Visitation Report was for the Provincial Council, the 13:26 11 community in the school itself didn't see that letter. 12 The Superior didn't even see it. But he got some 13 intimation of what was in it in a talk. 14 81 Q. THE CHAIRPERSON: He got a sanitised letter? 15 A. He did. No, even before that, maybe a little bit 13:26 16 later. But I assume it was normal that it should have 17 happened in these times too, was that the visitor met 18 the Superior before leaving and gave him more or less 19 what he thought, which would be the gist of his report. 20 Then after having discussed a being discussed at the 13:26 21 Council, a very much sanitised letter was sent to the 22 community, who may not have seen that, it was up to the 23 Superior to relay that. It could have been put up on a 24 notice board, it could be read out, or they could be 25 given the gist of it. If one wanted to make 13:27 26 improvements in a community to mention that it was in a 27 Visitation Report that had weight. 28 82 Q. MS. RATTIGAN: But basically, Brother, 29 there were no other 41 1 sanctions available? 2 A. There wasn't, no. 3 MS. RATTIGAN: Thank you, Brother. I have 4 no further questions. 5 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Now, 13:27 6 Ms. Moorhead. 7 MS. MOORHEAD: I have no questions. 8 THE CHAIRPERSON: You have no questions. 9 Mr. Lowe, have you any 10 questions? 13:27 11 83 Q. MR. LOWE: I have only one general 12 question, on page 46. 13 A. Of my submission? 14 84 Q. MR. LOWE: Of the Lavelle Coleman 15 file. 13:27 16 A. Yes, I have it here. 17 85 Q. MR. LOWE: This is on the closing of 18 Carriglea: 19 "I am enclosing for your information a list of boys in Carriglea school whom 20 it is proposed to send on transfer to 13:27 your school". 21 22 A little bit further on we have similar letters, for 23 example, page 49: 24 "I wish at the same time to inform you that we have decided to introduce 25 henceforth into our Industrial Schools 13:27 a certain measure of segregation. We 26 have decided to inform the Resident Managers of Artane, Glynn, Tralee and 27 Salthill Industrial Schools that they are to take no boys at a category 28 charged with an offence, etc. etc." 29 42 1 All I am wondering is how are these boys prepared for 2 this massive upheaval and moving around? 3 A. Very, very little, as far as I could make out. There 4 is a Brother who wrote about it. First of all, the 5 staff didn't know too much about it until they were 13:28 6 told towards the end. The boys got very little 7 preparation as far as I can make out. Except that they 8 were brought to the new location by a staff member. 9 86 Q. MR. LOWE: No matter how harsh the 10 environment they lived in, 13:28 11 it was their home? 12 A. It was their home, yes. Some complained about it all 13 right. I found that in -- not so much in the private 14 hearings but to the Redress Board, even a couple of 15 people mentioned that as well. It is difficult now to 13:28 16 see what they did do but we had no records, whatever, 17 of formal preparation. It seems that whatever it was, 18 it was very informal, if at all, beyond telling them 19 that they there was travelling involved and going to a 20 new place. 13:29 21 87 Q. MR. LOWE: When the whole Christian 22 Brother Industrial School 23 system closed down, was there equally little 24 preparation for the boys? 25 A. I think certainly in Tralee for a lot of the boys it 13:29 26 going home, then for an about a year and a half they 27 were finally winding down and I think those who 28 remained for that, yes, they were prepared, because it 29 was obvious and also they were being allowed to finish 43 1 courses they were doing. What other preparation as 2 regards preparation for life later on I couldn't say, I 3 have no records of that at all. 4 MR. LOWE: Okay. Thank you. 5 88 Q. MS. SHANLEY: Can I just ask you one 13:29 6 question, Brother, you may 7 not be able to help. Do you know, or have you any 8 information on how rationing was operated during the 9 war for the boys in industrial schools? 10 A. Very, very little. Except as regards Carriglea an 13:30 11 effort was made -- one of the Resident Managers 12 apparently was well in with the people in the know 13 around Dun Laoghaire and I think even with a certain 14 amount of foresight he began to buy up the like of 15 things you could. But as regards I can only mention 13:30 16 from our own house of formation in which I was at the 17 time. I remember in the early 1950's, rationing was 18 still on, that we had ration books and whatever came 19 in, in that time it was only butter or sugar or 20 something like that, so the system then in Carriglea 13:30 21 would have been that the authorities in the school held 22 the ration books and purchased whatever they could 23 using the coupons in the book. 24 89 Q. MS. SHANLEY: And every child had a 25 ration book? 13:31 26 A. Oh, yes, they were citizens and they were children they 27 could be claimed for. 28 90 Q. MS. SHANLEY: Were there any particular 29 arrangements made of 44 1 Industrial Schools and residential schools? 2 A. I don't think so. 3 91 Q. MS. SHANLEY: It was just 4 generalised 5 ...(INTERJECTION)? 13:31 6 A. They arrived in the post, under the children's names. 7 Now, there could have been a kind of joint measure set 8 up whereby a parcel of them arrived for the place but 9 there was a book related to every person. All right. 10 MS. SHANLEY: Okay thank you very much. 13:31 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much indeed. 12 13 END OF FURTHER QUESTIONING OF BR. NOLAN BY THE 14 COMMISSION 15 13:31 16 17 MR. CONNAUGHTON: Before you rise, just a 18 small practical matter, it 19 has nothing do with the Brother. 20 THE CHAIRPERSON: We can let Br. Nolan go. 13:31 21 22 THE WITNESS THEN WITHDREW 23 24 MR. CONNAUGHTON: Yes, I was going to say 25 that. We have already 13:31 26 indicated that we intend to put in submissions and I 27 just wonder whether you wanted to set any limits in 28 relation to that. 29 THE CHAIRPERSON: We anticipate that people 45 1 will want to put in written 2 submissions, Mr. Connaughton. We have not yet fixed 3 time limits for those. We would be sympathetic to 4 people -- I mean, there are people who would be in 5 different situations, for instance, Ms. Moorhead's side 13:32 6 would have to deal with a large number Of institutions. 7 MR. CONNAUGHTON: I fully accept that. 8 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am not suggesting, I am 9 not imputing to you a 10 different view about it. But as of now our attitude is 13:32 11 a warm welcome for submissions, we don't say that they 12 should be limited in one way or another way. And so we 13 are just in principle saying yes, we are perfectly 14 happy to receive submissions. 15 13:32 16 We don't propose, at this stage to indicate. We will 17 in due course indicate that we would like to receive 18 them by a certain date. If it comes to it that we 19 would have to have them by another date, we will fix a 20 time limit on it. Does that help? 13:33 21 MR. CONNAUGHTON: It does to an extent. 22 Sooner rather than later in 23 the sense that when everything is reasonably fresh in 24 one's mind in relation to it. The other matter that it 25 may have been apparent from the conduct this phase in 13:33 26 the hearings in a lot of instance the sorts of 27 questions that were being put, and I certainly find 28 myself in this position by the sort of questions I was 29 putting to individual Brothers, were sometimes more in 46 1 the nature of submissions based on documents rather 2 than questions in the way that we would normally put 3 questions to witnesses in an oral hearing. 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 5 MR. CONNAUGHTON: I wondered in those 13:33 6 circumstances -- and maybe 7 this isn't the time for it, but I wondered whether in 8 the circumstances the Commission, or this Committee of 9 the Commission, might consider it beneficial to briefly 10 hear relevant parties in respect of those submissions 13:34 11 at some future date in the context that those 12 submissions can then be made concisely but directly to 13 you in that regard and whether you think that might be 14 of some benefit in your final deliberations in the 15 matter. Certainly I felt constrained that I was 13:34 16 putting -- there were matters that I would like to put 17 to you again by reference to the documentation by way 18 of submission as to particular conclusions that might 19 be merited on that, that I didn't feel I could put in 20 this particular forum. Again, it is a respectful 13:34 21 suggestion that I make to you, to the members of the 22 Committee. 23 THE CHAIRPERSON: Well, we are happy to 24 consider that, 25 Mr. Connaughton. From my own part, my leaning would be 13:34 26 in one direction. But never say never, we are not so 27 closed. I see difficulties in allowing one party a 28 capacity to address when one would be faced -- I mean 29 no conclusion, I am just...(INTERJECTION). 47 1 MR. CONNAUGHTON: I certainly wasn't 2 suggesting 3 ...(INTERJECTION). 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: I am not unhelpfully 5 indicating a general -- it 13:35 6 is all right. 7 MR. CONNAUGHTON: I wasn't suggesting 8 anything on a one sided 9 basis, I think that it would be something that I would 10 envisage taking place on a two side basis. The other 13:35 11 thing...(INTERJECTION) 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: I appreciate that. The 13 question is where could it 14 stop? How could we ever say to somebody, "no, we won't 15 hear you." 13:35 16 MR. CONNAUGHTON: I think you might well have 17 some constraints in that 18 regard that you have operated in relation to the 19 conduct of this particular...(INTERJECTION). 20 THE CHAIRPERSON: Of the 450 people who have 13:35 21 given evidence. 22 MR. CONNAUGHTON: Yes, but you have managed 23 very successfully to run it 24 up to this point in relation to how representations 25 were being made to you. The other point I would make 13:35 26 to you is in the context of ordinary court proceedings, 27 it is increasingly coming the case that judges, learned 28 judges, are saying to practitioners you have got X 29 amount of time for submissions and that's what has been 48 1 allocated. Nobody seems to consider that that's 2 unethical or unreasonable. 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: My own feeling is that the 4 sensible response is that 5 we will consider that. No formal decision will be made 13:36 6 and if somebody wants to say something to us about that 7 we are quite happy to consider something. 8 MR. CONNAUGHTON: Thank you. 9 THE CHAIRPERSON: We have not made a final 10 decision on that. We would 13:36 11 want to try to be as open as possible to people and to 12 accommodate ourselves, as far as reasonably practicable 13 with what people would like us to do. If we can't do 14 that, we can't do it. Thank you very much. 15 MR. CONNAUGHTON: Thank you. 13:36 16 17 THE HEARING THEN CONCLUDED AT 1:36 P.M. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 49