COMMISSION TO INQUIRE INTO CHILD ABUSE PUBLIC HEARING HELD AT HERBERT PARK HOTEL BALLSBRIDGE, DUBLIN 4 ON TUESDAY, 16TH MAY 2006 - DAY 218A EVIDENCE OF SR. ANN-MARIE McQUAID BEFORE: MR. JUSTICE SEÁN RYAN CHAIRPERSON OF THE INQUIRY and MS. MARIAN SHANLEY MR. FRED LOWE I hereby certify the following to be a true and accurate transcript of my shorthand notes of the evidence in the above-named action. ______________________ MEMBERS OF THE COMMISSION PRESENT: REGISTRAR TO INVESTIGATION COMMITTEE: MR. B. REEDY COUNSEL FOR THE COMMISSION: MR. N. MacMAHON SC MS. L. RATTIGAN BL Instructed by: MS. E. McHUGH FOR THE SISTERS OF MERCY: MR. P. GAGEBY SC MS. NI RAIFEARTAIGH BL Instructed by: MR. M. CONNAUGHTON SC Instructed by: LAVELLE COLEMAN COPYRIGHT: Transcripts are the work of Gwen Malone Stenography Services and they must not be photocopied or reproduced in any manner or supplied or loaned by an appellant to a respondent or to by other party without written permission of Gwen Malone Stenography Services. INDEX WITNESS EXAMINATION QUESTION NO. SR. McQUAID QUESTION - THE COMMISSION 1 - 4 EXAMINED - MR. CONNAUGHTON 5 - 26 FURTHER QUESTIONED - THE COMMISSION 27 - 29 EXAMINED - MR. GAGEBY 30 - 43 FURTHER QUESTIONED - THE COMMISSION 44 - 54 RE-EXAMINED - MR. GAGEBY 55 - 58 1 THE HEARING COMMENCED AS FOLLOWS ON TUESDAY, 16TH MAY 2 2006: 3 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, Mr. MacMahon. 5 MS. RATTIGAN: Good morning, Chairman. 10:30 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: Oh sorry, Ms. Rattigan. 7 MS. RATTIGAN: We are here today to hear 8 evidence in relation to 9 St. Joseph's industrial school in Dundalk. And I would 10 like to call Sr. Ann-Marie McQuaid. 10:30 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, where is Sr. Ann-Marie 12 McQuaid. Good morning, 13 Sister. Come along and get your picture taken. I 14 gather you are happy with that. 15 A. I got it. 10:30 16 THE CHAIRPERSON: Very good. You will get it 17 together again, thank you 18 very much. Very good. Now, Ms. Rattigan. 19 MS. RATTIGAN: Chairman, perhaps the 20 witness could be sworn in 10:31 21 first. 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: Very good idea. Now, 23 Mr. Reedy. 24 25 SR. ANN-MARIE McQUAID, HAVING BEEN SWORN, WAS 10:31 26 QUESTIONED, BY THE COMMISSION, AS FOLLOWS: 27 28 1 Q. MS. RATTIGAN: Good morning, Sister. I 29 would like to reintroduce 4 1 you to the investigation Committee, if I may. I 2 understand you are the Provincial leader of the Sisters 3 of Mercy of the northern province; is that correct? 4 A. That's right. 5 2 Q. You are here today representing Sisters of Mercy in 10:32 6 respect of St. Joseph's Industrial School, Dundalk 7 which now comes within the ambit of the northern 8 province; is that correct? 9 A. That's correct, yes. 10 3 Q. I understand also you previously gave evidence to the 10:32 11 investigation Committee at a public session on 10th 12 January this year and you outlined at that pubic 13 hearing the source of information that you relied upon 14 and you also attended all the private hearings in 15 relation to Dundalk; is that correct? 10:32 16 A. Yes, that's correct. 17 4 Q. I think also that you yourself have no direct personal 18 knowledge of St. Joseph's industrial school Dundalk; is 19 that correct? 20 A. That's correct, yes. I was in a different diocese. 10:32 21 MS. RATTIGAN: I think you understand the 22 basis upon which you are 23 here today and that you are here to answer questions 24 that may arise out of issues concerning Phase I and 25 Phase II, and then I will pass you over to 10:32 26 Mr. Connaughton for some questions. 27 28 END OF QUESTIONING OF SR. McQUAID BY THE COMMISSION 29 5 1 SR. ANN-MARIE McQUAID WAS THEN EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY 2 MR. CONNAUGHTON: 3 4 5 Q. MR. CONNAUGHTON: Good morning to you 5 Sr. McQuaid. Mark 10:33 6 Connaughton is my name and I'm instructed by Lavelle 7 Coleman solicitors and I don't appear here on behalf of 8 any individual complainants. But I would like to ask 9 you a small number of general questions and I 10 appreciate that your knowledge of this particular 10:33 11 institution is derived from material rather than your 12 personal experience? 13 A. That's correct, yes. 14 6 Q. Nevertheless on behalf of the Congregation you are 15 presumably in a position to speak with some authority 10:33 16 about what went on and what occurred? 17 A. Yes, to the best of my ability. 18 7 Q. Sure. The first question I wanted to ask you about or 19 the first matter I wanted to ask you about is this, one 20 forms an impression from reading the material about 10:33 21 Dundalk that, apart from the very negative inspections 22 in 1944 and 1946, the people that were involved in 23 running Dundalk were attempting to be innovative, 24 attempting to do things well, but not in any real 25 structured way, I wondered whether you might like to 10:34 26 comment about that? That's an observation I am making 27 for this moment, but it is one I would like you to 28 comment on? 29 A. I haven't actually looked at the structured way but I 6 1 certainly saw it was very innovative in lots of ways. 2 In the fact that from 1942 the children did go out to 3 the primary school in the parish and mix with the 4 children of the locality, they had a godparenting 5 system in place whereby every child had a godparent 10:34 6 from a reputable family, who committed themselves to 7 remembering the child's birthday, Christmas and Easter 8 and they often took them on holidays. They had long 9 holidays in the summertime, about four weeks when they 10 went on mass to the holiday home, which had been built 10:34 11 and was paid for actually by the people of Dundalk 12 themselves. 13 14 For example, I notice in the Inspection Reports, you 15 mentioned there were two negative ones but the rest, 10:35 16 the other 33 we have were very positive and they talked 17 about in the 1960's and 1970's about the intimate 18 atmosphere and the warm atmosphere within the school 19 itself. 20 10:35 21 I remember one of the quotes was that it was actually a 22 textbook example of a school in which the children came 23 before the buildings, because the building was not 24 great. 25 8 Q. Yes, I think that's...(INTERJECTION)? 10:35 26 A. But the children were definitely cared for and had a 27 very innovative programme before the children left at 28 16, the girls left at 16. 29 9 Q. Very good. What I meant when I was putting to you that 7 1 it was unstructured was this: It appears to have come 2 from within that institution, rather than from a policy 3 driven approach on behalf or on the part of the Sisters 4 of Mercy. Now, I know I wasn't here yesterday, but I 5 know that obviously you will make the point that in 10:35 6 terms of the organisation and structure of the Sisters 7 of Mercy there was a dramatic or a significant change 8 in that organisation in the relatively recent past? 9 A. Yes. 10 10 Q. Through the nationalisation, as it were, of the Order? 10:36 11 A. Yes. 12 11 Q. Nevertheless the point I was going to put to you was 13 that what was done was done on an ad hoc basis within 14 that particular institution. I mean, you have 15 mentioned two things in particular that I wanted to 10:36 16 refer to: One was the integration with local -- the 17 local convent primary school, the integration of the 18 children with the local convent primary school? 19 A. Yes. 20 12 Q. You would be aware no doubt from your general knowledge 10:36 21 that that wasn't a situation that prevailed in other 22 Sisters of Mercy institutions, residential 23 institutions? 24 A. Well I wouldn't be au fait with all of them, because 25 the Mercy Sisters ran quite a number of institutions 10:36 26 and I would only be familiar with a couple of them. I 27 think Dundalk too had an advantage of being on the side 28 of a street and it was certainly very limited in the 29 space it had, the old primary school. They had an 8 1 initial primary school, which was closed in 1942 and 2 demolished. That itself I would say was -- I wouldn't 3 be in a position to judge of it because I am really not 4 au fait with the others. 5 13 Q. Another aspect in this regard that I just draw to your 10:37 6 attention and asked you to comment upon is that really 7 until the 1970's there was nothing structured in terms 8 of the staffing, it was really from the ranks, people 9 taken from the ranks in order to staff the institution? 10 A. What do you mean? 10:37 11 14 Q. What I mean by that is that the Sisters who were 12 involved in running the institution, this particular 13 institution, that they wouldn't have received any 14 special or particular training in this regard, that 15 wasn't something that really was on the agenda or in 10:37 16 the mindset until the 1970's; isn't that right? 17 A. In Ireland there were no training courses actually 18 until the 1970's in professional childcare. Is that 19 what you are saying? 20 15 Q. No, I appreciate that. No, I'm saying that there was 10:38 21 no specific training provided to the people who worked, 22 the Sisters who worked, didn't receive any particular 23 or special training to work in these particular 24 institutions and obviously you can only speak by 25 reference to Dundalk? 10:38 26 A. Right. And I would be familiar with the fact that vast 27 majority of the Sisters were either trained teachers 28 with experience, some of them with experience of 29 principalships and nurses. Those would be the 9 1 majority. 2 16 Q. Let me be more specific. You would agree with me, no 3 doubt, that with respect to education that while the 4 children were integrated, because of their particular 5 backgrounds, they didn't perform particularly well in 10:38 6 the formal education setting? 7 A. Quite a number of them didn't, and I must say it is a 8 great regret to us and we would have said how sad we 9 are and sorry that a number of children, their 10 potential wasn't developed. We also are aware that 10:39 11 some children were able to do better than others. Some 12 went to secondary school, eventually went on to 13 nursing. Some went into secretarial work and into 14 childcare and that. But there would have been and we 15 would acknowledge that there would have been children 10:39 16 who didn't perform well. 17 18 I would say too that certainly in the 1940's and 1950's 19 and 1960's there wasn't an awareness of the educational 20 needs of children who had been traumatised by loss or 10:39 21 by bereavement or by displacement, even in schools, and 22 schools had very big classes and there were no special 23 needs teachers like we have today. So sadly there was 24 children lost out. 25 17 Q. Yes. I suppose the specific point, and I think you 10:39 26 have dealt with it, but the specific point that I was 27 putting to you in this regard was that in reality the 28 majority of the children would have ended up not going 29 any further than the very basic level of education, and 10 1 as a result would have ended up, the girls in 2 particular, substantially in domestic service and that 3 kind of employment? 4 A. Yes, the majority would have done primary school, basic 5 primary school, the primary school certificate and some 10:40 6 would have gone on to do business studies, typing and 7 that. But what you are saying is quite a large 8 proportion did go into domestic service, either in 9 private home, residences or hotels or that. 10 18 Q. The other thing that struck me in relation to education 10:40 11 in particular was the absence of any dialogue between 12 the Sisters of Mercy and the Department of Education in 13 relation to additional resources in this area. And I 14 wonder whether you would have any comment to make about 15 that? 10:41 16 A. Do you mean they weren't asking for extra resources, is 17 that it? 18 19 Q. Well, I suppose those of us who have any knowledge of 19 the Department of Education would know that they 20 usually say no. But there doesn't even seem to have 10:41 21 been an exchange between the parties as to additional 22 needs in this area and how they might be met or that 23 they couldn't be met? In other words, if you take the 24 point of the need for special needs teachers, I know 25 that's what they are called now, but the need for 10:41 26 special education for these children, there doesn't 27 seem to have been any exchange as to how that might be 28 approached, even if the circumstances weren't there at 29 a particular point in time to make it available, so 11 1 maybe even it would be budgeted going forward, there is 2 a complete absence or dirth of information in this 3 regard? 4 A. I am wondering, I am not sure, I am wondering is that 5 because the educational needs of the children were 10:42 6 dealt with in the primary school and the primary school 7 was the parish primary school, so their records and 8 their correspondence wouldn't be in the correspondence 9 of St. Joseph's. 10 20 Q. I would have to suggest to you that that wouldn't be 10:42 11 so, because at the end of the day these were children 12 who were institutionalised and insofar as anybody was 13 standing in locus parentis in relation to these people 14 it would have been the administrators of the school. I 15 am obviously putting it to you so that you have an 10:42 16 opportunity of commenting on it, that it is noteworthy 17 that there doesn't seem to have been any demand or 18 request for additional resources in this regard? 19 A. As I said, probably that would have come through the 20 primary schools. If this is any help, the Sisters from 10:42 21 the primary school, who taught during the day in the 22 primary school, used to come in the evening and help 23 the children with their homework. Because, as you 24 said, it became very obvious, certainly in the 1960's, 25 that there were children who weren't able to keep up 10:43 26 with the class. And the principal of the school, who 27 was a Sister, was able to form a kind of a rota among 28 the Sisters so that they would go in in the evening and 29 help those children who had difficulty with their 12 1 homework. So I suppose that's what they did, and I am 2 hoping that the primary school did look for resources. 3 21 Q. The other general point I want to put to you relates to 4 the numbers in the school, I appreciate -- I know it is 5 going back some time, I appreciate it, but when you 10:43 6 gave your evidence on 10th January 2006 you gave the 7 Committee some assistance in that regard because you 8 referred -- it is only a very short passage, it is at 9 page 3, you just told the Commission that: "In the 10 1960's there were on average...", even before that you 10:43 11 said: 12 "From the 1950's the numbers of 13 children enrolled in St. Joseph's decreased significantly and was down to 14 45 by 1958. In the 1960's there were an average 30 children in the school 15 and this was increased with the 10:44 admission of boys in 65 but that a very 16 temporary increase." 17 18 You draw the attention to the Commission by 1976 the 19 number of residents was down to 26 and that was in 20 total that it dropped down. 10:44 21 22 I just want you to reflect on this for a moment: In 23 the 1940's. I can't give you a precise year, but there 24 would have been approximately 100 in the institution. 25 I think there is a reference here that: 10:44 26 "As the years went by extensions were 27 added to the school and by 1943 a certificate for St. Joseph's was 28 increased to 100 places." 29 13 1 That doesn't necessarily mean there were 100 people 2 there? 3 A. No, actually there was 70 in the 1970's. 4 22 Q. So from 70 you have it dropping down to about 30. One 5 of the things I noted from the documentation is that 10:45 6 there doesn't seem to have ever been a specific 7 consideration given to the optimum number of children 8 with respect to the care of the children and the number 9 of staff who would have been available to care for the 10 children and I wonder would you like to comment about 10:45 11 that? 12 A. Yes, I would, because I was amazed when I did my 13 research and went through all the staffing that through 14 most of my period on review, which is about 1940 to 15 1983, there actually was a child/staff ratio of 1:9 10:45 16 which amazed me because that was not the norm for the 17 time. Those were usually three Sisters and employed 18 staff and that wasn't counting the staff who came in, 19 Sisters who came in in the morning and the evening, so 20 it was amazing that it was that. 10:45 21 23 Q. Very good. I didn't do that exercise but it leads me 22 back to the point I virtually started with, that this 23 doesn't seem to have been on the basis of any 24 structured approach to managing or organising 25 St. Joseph's, it was just the way things were done? 10:46 26 A. I think it probably was an attitude, if you are talking 27 about the structure of the Sisters of Mercy there 28 wasn't a body of the Sisters of Mercy as such, it was 29 units within a town or a diocese, that was the total 14 1 unit. Dundalk was the total unit for Dundalk and it 2 didn't have any connections with any other communities. 3 I am not sure if -- is that what you are asking about? 4 24 Q. Well, it is, partially answers the question, it is a 5 matter for the Commission at the end of the day, but 10:46 6 what I am really putting to you is that there seemed to 7 be a lot of little things going on in St. Joseph's that 8 aren't replicated in other institutions which were also 9 run by the Sisters of Mercy and I appreciate you have 10 made the point that it was run on a pretty much an 10:47 11 independent fiefdom basis. But there doesn't seem to 12 have been any cross fertilisation or exchange of views 13 in this regard between the various different diocese or 14 whatever way it was structured at that time as to how 15 things were being run and how they might learn from 10:47 16 each other for example? 17 A. And I wouldn't be able to answer about that, but I 18 would think that when the Resident Managers' 19 Association was set up that there would be some cross 20 fertilisation of ideas because I noticed the two month 10:47 21 programme for girls before they left school, actually I 22 think originated from the Resident Managers. I have 23 memories of the Sisters saying that the Resident 24 Manager went to the meetings and she would come back 25 and make various changes. So how it worked the other 10:48 26 way I'm not sure. 27 25 Q. One of the final questions I just wanted to put to you 28 is that while you have dealt with the issue of corporal 29 punishment and in particular you referred to the issue 15 1 of the Punishment Book and indeed in the course of 2 presentations, there has been some discussion on this 3 specific subject. I think then at page 28 and 29 of 4 your -- I should say page 25 of the transcript, of my 5 printed copy, there is two paginations, but at the top 10:48 6 of page -- it is question No. 66, and I will just read 7 you the passage, it is very, very short, it just says: 8 9 "Q. You state in the statement that the 10 Punishment Report Book covering the 10:48 period from 1932 to 1950 is still in 11 existence. What happen to the Book after 1950? 12 A. It doesn't seem to have been filled in." 13 14 Then the question was asked -- well, does that mean 15 that it is there, but it is blank but I think that you 10:49 16 couldn't find any record of it at all, isn't that 17 right? 18 A. Yes, we did have the Book, which we gave to the 19 Commission, but it was blank. And I must say I would 20 have had the question that is probably in your mind, 10:49 21 why it was blank. I don't have an answer, except that 22 I am conscious that in the couple of other institutions 23 that I am aware of that had Punishment Books theirs 24 seem to have ended in the 1950's as well. And I must 25 say I found that puzzling because each time the 10:49 26 Inspector came in for an inspection he or she signed 27 the Punishment Book, so I was just wondering what 28 happened that the Inspector didn't ask for the Book 29 between 1950 and 1983. I suppose part of me was 16 1 thinking did they say there was no need. I just don't 2 know. That was a puzzle to me as well. Because they 3 had been very conscientious, about it. 4 26 Q. Nevertheless, it was something that ought to have been 5 completed? 10:50 6 A. It was part of the rules and regulations of the school. 7 MR. CONNAUGHTON: Very good. Thank you very 8 much indeed. Thank you, 9 Chairman. 10 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Now, 10:50 11 Ms. Rattigan. 12 13 END OF EXAMINATION OF SR. McQUAID BY MR. CONNAUGHTON 14 15 SR. ANN-MARIE McQUAID WAS QUESTIONED, AS FOLLOWS, BY 10:50 16 THE COMMISSION: 17 18 27 Q. MS. RATTIGAN: Chairman, I just have one 19 brief area that I wish to 20 explore with Sr. McQuaid. It arises in relation to the 10:50 21 care staff in Dundalk, you mentioned there earlier that 22 there was a child ratio of 1:9 in terms of staff, so 23 there was lot of lay staff employed in the school and 24 in particular we heard that there was girls from the 25 Munster Institute that were engaged each year. What 10:50 26 vetting procedure were there for such girls or how were 27 they recruited, do you know? 28 A. I inquired where the staff came from and I was told 29 that it was from a number of institutes, like the 17 1 Munster Institute, Cathal Brugha Street, there was some 2 other courses run in Dublin which had one year training 3 courses for mainly home economics, that type of care. 4 And the Resident Manager would have talked to the 5 principal of the particular school or if there were 10:51 6 other Congregations running training programmes at the 7 Resident Managers' meetings they would be asking "do 8 you know of any girl who would be suitable, good 9 character, could work with children?" And that's 10 really the way they got their staff. 10:51 11 12 Most of the care staff and tutors came -- didn't come 13 from Dundalk actually, although they did have helpers 14 in as well. So that's all I was able to find. 15 28 Q. These care staff that were employed in Dundalk, do you 10:51 16 know what level of supervision the nuns then exercised 17 over those staff? 18 A. Well, in the institution itself there would have been 19 three Sisters, two full time and one who would have 20 been in half day every day, a nurse. And it would have 10:52 21 been the Resident Manager and the assistant manager who 22 would have supervision of the staff. I do know that 23 both the Resident Managers in the period that we are 24 dealing with laid down very strict rules about caring 25 for the children and about corporal punishment and they 10:52 26 were forbidden to punish the children. 27 28 Now, that was the rule, sadly it wasn't always kept, 29 because I do know there was a member of staff in the 18 1 1950's who beat the children with a hairbrush and one 2 of the senior girls reported it to the Resident Manager 3 and the young woman was dismissed. And that was one of 4 the ones. 5 10:52 6 So I think in my statement I apologised to anybody who 7 suffered either because of unmerited or excessive 8 punishment, either from a Sister or from ones that we 9 didn't even notice. So that was the care, that was the 10 supervision. Is that okay? 10:53 11 29 Q. Were there any written guidelines to that effect or is 12 this just information that you obtained through 13 speaking to other Sisters? 14 A. I did get in the files a copy was kept of the rules and 15 regulations for the industrial school, so whether they 10:53 16 were read to the staff or not I don't know, or just 17 verbally interpret. But I do know that was the rule, 18 that it so you have been the Resident Manager who did 19 the punishment. I do know that a Sister told me that 20 way back in the 1940's that she had seen a girl spit at 10:53 21 one of the Sisters, one of the younger Sisters and she 22 slapped her and the Resident Manager had seen her and 23 had reprimanded her. 24 25 Now, saying that, that that was the norm, we would say 10:54 26 that there wasn't an atmosphere of abuse, but the 27 length of period of time is so long and there were so 28 many children and a variety of staff it is realistic to 29 say that there would have been times when a child could 19 1 have been beaten more severely. And for that we would 2 be sad, very sad and apologise. 3 MS. RATTIGAN: I have no further 4 questions, Sister, thank 5 you. 10:54 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: Very good. 7 8 END OF FURTHER QUESTIONING OF SR. McQUAID BY THE 9 COMMISSION 10 10:54 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: Now, Mr. Gageby. 12 13 SR. ANN-MARIE McQUAID WAS THEN EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY 14 MR. GAGEBY: 15 10:54 16 30 Q. MR. GAGEBY: Sister, just one or two 17 matters, please. I wanted 18 to come back to the question of education. I think 19 firstly, as we all know, free secondary education 20 didn't come in until the mid-1960's; isn't that 10:54 21 correct? 22 A. In 1963. 23 31 Q. I think obviously Dundalk closed more than 20 years 24 ago? 25 A. 1983, yes. 10:55 26 32 Q. So looking at the 1940'S, 1950's and early 1960's the 27 school was being run under the rules established by the 28 Department; isn't that correct? 29 A. Yes. 20 1 33 Q. And we know all about the material, that a child could 2 only go to secondary school while in the institution 3 with the consent of the Minister and without charge to 4 the people of Ireland? 5 A. Yes. 10:55 6 34 Q. In fact, it appears that a number of children prior to 7 free primary education -- free secondary, were in fact 8 offered places from Dundalk. I want to put up on the 9 monitor a document which came to us from the Department 10 of Education. I am sorry it is not in the pack for 10:55 11 everybody else, it came to me about ten minutes ago, 12 its citation is DGB0126/003/1. This is a document 13 which we believe was in circulation in the Department 14 of Education prior to the conference in Carysfort in 15 1953 and which the Committee has seen some bits and 10:56 16 pieces. 17 18 This is a document of a number of pages, it 19 is "Provision of Secretary Or Vocational Training for 20 Children in Industrial Schools". It goes by schools 10:56 21 and it is referring to -- we think the document is 22 dated 1953 and it is referring to what has happened in 23 the preceding year. There is a number of schools which 24 are cited on the left and it then moves across the 25 right. We are moving on to page 3, and if we could 10:57 26 just explore slightly. 27 28 We are looking at Dundalk, which appears No. 2. And 29 the query under the second comment is: 21 1 "Number of children offered post primary education 1951/52." 2 3 There is a squiggle. 4 "No. Of children to be offered post primary education in 1952/53." 5 10:57 6 So it is between the two school year or over the two 7 school years. The remark is: 8 "Secondary school attached to this convent, two girls attended in year 9 1950 to 51 and were offered the choice of entering a course of secondary 10 education but preferred to be 10:57 discharge". 11 12 Firstly, I am just trying to make sense of that. 13 Firstly, a child would obviously be offered the 14 secondary education a lot earlier than 15 or something 15 like that, it would be about 6th class; isn't that 10:58 16 right? 17 A. 6th class. 18 35 Q. Obviously children were discharged at age 16, so the 19 offer wasn't obviously being made at the age of 15 or 20 whatever. Would that be your understanding just 10:58 21 looking at that document? 22 A. Yes. 23 36 Q. It would seem that in Dundalk two girls attended in 24 1950/51 and were offered a chance but declined; isn't 25 that right? 10:58 26 A. Yes. 27 37 Q. And that would seem to be to do the Leaving, would that 28 be right, isn't that the way of reading it? 29 A. Yeah, I think they had been offered the course in 22 1 secondary school towards the Leaving, yes. 2 38 Q. Because secondary school attended in this convent: 3 "Two girls attend in year 1950/51 and 4 were offered a chance to continue a course of secondary". 5 10:59 6 So that would seem that they were already there and the 7 possibility, the option, being there to go to Leaving. 8 That's one way of reading it. So that must have been 9 funded in some way which wasn't from the Department of 10 Education? 10:59 11 A. Before free education came in I noticed in the account 12 books a couple of girls who were at St. Joseph's in 13 1960's, now I didn't go back that far, and the fees 14 were being paid by the convent. 15 39 Q. I see. Could we just put this in context therefore, 10:59 16 where there is one or two firstly, in...(INTERJECTION)? 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr. Gageby, just 18 tell us about this document 19 again. 20 MR. GAGEBY: This document is from the 11:00 21 Department of Education 22 discovery, it appears to have been a document that was 23 circulating, it relates to Mercy and non-Mercy 24 institutions, we believe prior to or for the 25 conference. 11:00 26 THE CHAIRPERSON: It is related to the 27 conference in 1953. 28 MR. GAGEBY: It seems to be, yes, it 29 seems to be. I am sorry it 23 1 only came to me ten minutes ago. 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: Don't apologise. 3 40 Q. MR. GAGEBY: But that seems to be the 4 context, it is looking at 5 the previous two years and what has happened about 11:00 6 secondary education. 7 8 (To the witness) I want to get the context. Firstly, 9 how many girls were in Dundalk in 1951/52, 1952/53? 10 A. 1951 there were 73; 1952 there was 68; and in 1953 11:00 11 there was 59. 12 THE CHAIRPERSON: What do you make of this, 13 Mr. Gageby, where it says: 14 "Number of children to be afforded post 15 primary education." 11:01 16 17 "Afforded" not offered, not provided by the nuns or 18 whatever it is? 19 MR. GAGEBY: I don't know, 20 because...(INTERJECTION). 11:01 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: Maybe it is the language of 22 the time. 23 MR. GAGEBY: I think it is because it is 24 speaking of the previous 25 year or the year before. 11:01 26 THE CHAIRPERSON: The number of who were 27 afforded it 1951/52 and the 28 number to be afforded it. 29 MR. GAGEBY: It is obviously post 24 1 1951/52, if you understand 2 me. 3 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 4 41 Q. MR. GAGEBY: Can I just come back to 5 this: On the numbers 11:01 6 system that you have just given us there of girls 7 between about 70 and 50 over those years; am I right? 8 A. Yes. 9 42 Q. Is it possible to do a breakdown as to how many of 10 those would have been on the cusp, in other words, 11:01 11 around 6th class and that sort of time? Is it possible 12 to give any idea? 13 A. It is, but I wouldn't be able to do it for you now. 14 43 Q. All right. Could I ask just to try and do a very rough 15 idea. Supposing in 1952 there were -- we were asking 11:02 16 you to look at Dundalk, for instance, how many children 17 at that stage would have been from the institution 18 roughly of the age of 12 or 13, just thinking, I mean 19 it is unlikely to be all of them, it is unlikely to be 20 none of them, it has got to be a certain percentage on 11:02 21 the spread, of the 68? 22 A. Maybe 20, would it? I don't honestly know. 23 MR. GAGEBY: All right, no. 24 Sr. Ann-Marie, is there 25 anything else you would like to add? 11:02 26 A. No, that's grand. 27 MR. GAGEBY: Thank you very much. 28 29 END OF EXAMINATION OF SR. McQUAID BY MR. GAGEBY 25 1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Mr. Lowe, would you like to 2 ask any questions? 3 4 SR. ANN-MARIE McQUAID WAS FURTHER QUESTIONED, AS 5 FOLLOWS, BY THE COMMISSION: 11:03 6 7 8 44 Q. MR. LOWE: Good morning. Going 9 through the medical 10 inspector's reports, bear with me while I take you 11:03 11 through a few years of them: 12 13 "1948, I'm hoping to get a recreation hall. 14 1950, no recreation hall, one is to be 15 provided. 11:03 16 1951, recreation hall is under discussion. It appears a room in the 17 old school may be given for this purpose. 18 1951." Later in that year. 19 "Recreation hall still under discussion. 20 11:03 1952 no recreation hall yet, under 21 discussion. 22 1953 no recreation hall yet." 23 24 1954 ditto. 25 11:03 26 "1956 children play in field attached to the primary school as they have no 27 accommodation for themselves of their own. 28 1959 things will improve in recreation 29 hall in time, it requires a little initiative to get things going." 26 1 2 Remember that's 11 years after it was first noted. 3 4 "1958. They have a field to play in but none in the premises." 5 11:04 6 Finally in April 1960: 7 "New recreation hall, an old school room has been provided." 8 9 I nearly cheered when I saw that. Why does it take 12 10 years to provide a basic facility deemed necessary in 11:04 11 1948? 12 A. All I can offer is that, first of all, it was a fairly 13 limited building and a fairly limited site, the 14 building actually was a string of houses which had been 15 built and connected together. They had a small yard at 11:04 16 the back with a shelter for the children with a roof 17 and three sides and a hot pipe that ran through it and 18 connected to the laundry, that was as much as they were 19 able to do. On wet days, they were in the school. 20 11:05 21 When the old school -- in 1954, they moved to a new 22 site, part of that building was taken over, and I am 23 surprised it was 1960, I thought it was actually before 24 that, that they had moved in to take over. The other 25 thing that happened in the 1960's and 1970's they 11:05 26 revamped the whole building and moved the dining room 27 downstairs up to the next floor and it transformed the 28 long dining room into a recreation hall. But it 29 certainly all along the line the building was of great 27 1 difficulty and it was restrictive in adaptability and 2 in improvements. And I would acknowledge that. I do 3 know that some -- a quite a number of the former 4 residents would have memories of playing outside and 5 feeling cold and huddling in that shelter. 11:06 6 45 Q. MR. LOWE: And it suggests the 7 priorities were for basic 8 facilities and that playing and recreational facilities 9 were not seen as a high priority for the children? 10 A. I would say you are right in that the priority was 11:06 11 basic, like good accommodation for them for the 12 dormitories or cubicles and improving the building 13 inside. Because I do know there was a Reverend Mother 14 in the 1950's who was very farseeing but she had to 15 borrow over 20,000 from a community in the another 11:06 16 county to be able to do that adaptation because there 17 was no funding. 18 19 I do know that in the 1950's, the Inspection Reports 20 would have said how much the building needed painting. 11:07 21 The Sisters used to run bazaars and they actually 22 collected door to door in Dundalk and in Dublin to fund 23 those kind of adaptations. I was told they could 24 afford the paint but they couldn't afford the painter. 25 So four of the Sisters, including the Reverend Mother 11:07 26 and the Resident Manager, two Sisters from the school 27 and the caretaker of the convent, painted the building 28 basement to top floor at night-time. From the memory 29 of the children, it was a former resident told me that 28 1 at night-time they used to creep out of the bed to see 2 the nuns without their veils when they were painting. 3 But they did it from top to bottom. So you are right, 4 they concentrated on the inner part of the building 5 first. 11:07 6 46 Q. MR. LOWE: The report certainly 7 states: 8 "Well run school, with caring people in charge of it." 9 10 A. Yes. 11:07 11 47 Q. MR. LOWE: It is complimentary on 12 those things? 13 A. Yes. 14 48 Q. MR. LOWE: It is only the fact that 15 play in comfortable 11:08 16 circumstances didn't seem to be prioritised, that 17 disturbs me? 18 A. Yes, I suppose it is true in our hindsight and we know 19 the importance of play in the role of the development 20 of the child, when the main building was developed, I 11:08 21 was glad to know that they adapted that whole bottom 22 area for child play. I do know that they did a lot of 23 work on the nursery, even to the simple things of 24 motifs on the wall and a lot of play toys that would 25 help children learn motor skills and give them 11:08 26 enjoyment as well. The children did go out a lot too, 27 they walked a lot, they went out on walks and they 28 would have been invited out to homes and to 29 performances and that. But it is true, the 29 1 Congregation...(INTERJECTION) 2 49 Q. MR. LOWE: Would you agree also it 3 illustrates how difficult 4 it is to change things in an institution? 5 A. Yes, yes. It is slow. Especially if money is an 11:09 6 issue. 7 MR. LOWE: Thank you. 8 50 Q. MS. SHANLEY: Can I just ask one question 9 arising out of that. I may 10 be wrong, but from reading the documents in relation to 11:09 11 Dundalk, I think it is the only reference we have to 12 active fundraising by the Sisters, certainly if there 13 is another I would be reminded of it, but certainly it 14 is the only reference I can recall seeing. Why was 15 that, fundraising was something which was very often 11:09 16 associated with childcare and provision of childcare, 17 certainly in other countries as well? Was there any 18 difficulty with the nuns fundraising and why did they 19 do it in Dundalk and not do it elsewhere? Or did they 20 do it elsewhere and we just don't have a record of it? 11:09 21 A. My understanding, and I could be wrong, but I would 22 have heard that fundraising was core to many of the 23 Mercy institutions. 24 51 Q. MS. SHANLEY: Yes. I don't see any 25 reference to it in any of 11:10 26 the documents, except, as I say, your document refers 27 to it? 28 A. I must say I noted it because I was most surprised at 29 the Sisters going around the houses, because I 30 1 associated that with other Congregations. I remember 2 saying I wouldn't have had the humility to go around 3 houses asking for money, I would have organised bazaars 4 and that but I thought it took tremendous effort. Also 5 the people of Dundalk were extremely supportive and 11:10 6 generous. 7 52 Q. MS. SHANLEY: Yes, that's another 8 impression I get. 9 A. Yes, very much so. And a lot of organisations provided 10 treats for the children and there would have been very 11:10 11 generous benefactors as well. At the same time, right 12 from the start the Sisters never seemed to have enough 13 money. When they went to buy the extra house in the 14 1880's, they actually mortgaged the convent to the 15 grand jury of Dundalk to raise a loan of 10,000 which 11:11 16 they would pay back £100 a year. I mentioned about the 17 20,000 they borrow from a neighbouring county as well. 18 53 Q. MS. SHANLEY: But it is your 19 understanding that 20 fundraising was a very central and core operation of 11:11 21 all the Sisters? 22 A. Yes. 23 54 Q. MS. SHANLEY: Of the Order generally? 24 A. Yes, that's my understanding. 25 MS. SHANLEY: Okay. Thank you for that. 11:11 26 THE CHAIRPERSON: Very good. 27 28 END OF FURTHER QUESTIONING OF SR. McQUAID BY THE 29 COMMISSION 31 1 2 MR. GAGEBY: Could I just come back on 3 one matter, please, on the 4 money issue. 5 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly. 11:11 6 7 SR. ANN-MARIE McQUAID WAS RE-EXAMINED, AS FOLLOWS, BY 8 MR. GAGEBY: 9 10 55 Q. MR. GAGEBY: Mr. Lowe was asking you, 11:11 11 Sr. Ann-Marie, about the 12 difficulties and why it took so long to get this 13 particular aspect of the playroom and play area dealt 14 with. Just correct me if I am wrong in this: There 15 was the capitation system, which obviously was pro rata 11:11 16 for each child and varied and went up in the years? 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: It was the same for each 18 child. 19 56 Q. MR. GAGEBY: Yes, but it went up. Yes, 20 indeed. 11:12 21 22 (To the witness) There were at some stages building 23 grants from the Department and at some stages there 24 were not; isn't that correct? 25 A. They were building grants at one stage in the middle of 11:12 26 the 1940's and they were discontinued about, I think it 27 is, 1948. 28 57 Q. January 1948? 29 A. And by that stage I think Dundalk had just got about 32 1 700 and something. 2 58 Q. 171 in pounds? 3 A. In grants. I know that when the inspectors came to the 4 school in 1971 and saw all the renovations that had 5 been done to the school and discovered the £20,000 that 11:12 6 had already been paid, I got the sense that he 7 encouraged the Sisters to apply to request extra money. 8 I notice that had following year they got a grant of 9 3,000 towards their 20,000 plus expenditure. 10 MR. GAGEBY: Thank you very much. 11:13 11 12 END OF RE-EXAMINATION OF SR. McQUAID BY MR. GAGEBY 13 14 THE CHAIRPERSON: Very good, thank you very 15 much, Sister. Thank you. 11:13 16 Are we going straight on, or do people want a break? 17 MR. MacMAHON: Perhaps a short break to 18 allow documents be arranged 19 on the table. I wouldn't anticipate a long break would 20 be required. 11:13 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: Very good. Then we will do 22 Clifden, isn't that right? 23 MR. MacMAHON: Yes. 24 THE CHAIRPERSON: Very good. 25 11:13 26 27 THE HEARING THEN CONCLUDED AT 11:13 A.M. 28 29 33